I have been having discussions about this subject with a couple of people at work so it is very fresh in my mind.  I guess I should have asked you your definition of “free will”…I think most of the time we mean a freedom to choose.  The association of the popular idea of “free will” to me means something different that what the freedom to choose seems to indicate. 

I like your point about Scripture not stating what we are predestined for.  I had not really pondered that aspect.  I agree with what you said about God knowing what we are going to choose but allowing us the freedom to make that choice.  He could divinely step in…yet He doesn’t.  Which brings me to wholeheartedly agree with Daughter80..that there is ample Scripture to support both views.  I think we have to make sure what context we are talking about as always when discussing Scripture.  And we do arrive back at the same place when we work through both views…back at the place where we must recognize that God is sovereign and that we most likely, will never understand this issue totally.  Our concern should be our daily walk with Christ.  That daily choice we must make to “take up our cross”  to choose who we will serve for the day…

BTW – Thanks for sharing the story about the little boy in your church.  What a little miracle…oh that we all would have the faith and understanding of a child!  By the fruits you shared…it would seem God has you right where He wants you for the time being!

Thanks for letting me continue to comment on these posts!  I post long ones…but don’t usually get many repsonses so this talk of theology and such is a real treasure!

Ain’t God good?  It’s always nice to know how God is using you.  I’m glad He gave you that encouragement!

You addressed issues of eternal security in relation to free will. That topic (E.S.) is not one I’d like to get into at this time. It would take too long and is not the point. The point is this: Do we have the ability to choose, or are all of our “choices” predetermined, or predestined, for us? I think to believe that they are all predestined, if you take that belief to it’s logical conclusion, is not Biblical. If everything, including our salvation, has been predetermined, then why do we preach to the lost? Why do we do any kind of evangelism? Because (according to the modern doctrine of predestination) it’s already been decided who will be saved and who will not, and we can’t do anything to change that. And then we have to deal with the aspect of this teaching that says that some people are made just to go to hell. God created them, knit them together in their mothers womb, only for the purpose of burning in hell forever. I will admit that there are verse that I don’t always understand (like “even the wicked are made for the day of destruction”), but I think the whole picture of the Bible does not support this belief. And there is also the fact that you cannot really have true love without free will. If you are preprogrammed to love God (which is a logical outgrowth of extreme predestinationism) then is it really love as described in the Bible? Are we also predestined to “love” our family?

But then what do we do with the verses, like the ones you included in your comment, that discuss the concept of predestination and God’s foreknowledge? You are right, they are also in the Bible and part of the Truth. I don’t claim to have it all figured out. I still sometimes have questions about things. But, we need to look carefully at what these verses are saying. For one thing, it does not say “Predestined to become Christians”. It says “…predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.” Being conformed to the image of Christ is something that continues to happen after we are saved, and is a seperate thing from salvation. (Though I will admit that it takes place after salvation.) And what about that foreknowledge, which apparently comes before predestination? What is it that God foreknew which brought about the predestination? Or did they both happen at the same time? These are questions I don’t really think I can totally answer with out a lot more time, study, and thought.

My belief, and I haven’t studied this extremely closely, is this and is based on my own reading and meditation on Scripture over the years. Perhaps God predestines certain groups of people, but not individuals. That is to say, he predestined that the group defined as those “in Christ” will be conformed to the image of his dear Son and will go to heaven, etc., but he did not predetermine which individuals could and could not enter into that group, into Christ. That is their choice to make. But not that they make that choice on their own, he gives them the grace to make the right choice, but they can resist the grace of God and choose the evil. Does that makes sense? Consider this question. Do the verses that talk about predestination refer that concept to individuals or a group? I can’t think of any that are aimed at individuals, but in context usually refer to a group of people. (Namely Christins.)

A good Biblical basis and analogy is the Israelites. God predestined the children of Israel to be his people, set apart unto him. Not for any goodness in themselves, but simply because he chose them and perhaps because of the faith of Abraham. That was decided long ago. But God did not predestine which individuals would be part of Israel. He even made provision in the Law (I think) for Gentiles who wished to become Jews, and enter into that covenant with God, to do so. In fact, those of us who are Gentiles have been grafted in through our faith in Christ. And Israel also gives us a good Biblical basis for the fact that we have free will.
God tells them over and over again “Choose either good or evil, God or idols, etc.” Choose, choose, choose! He promised them that they would posses all the land of Canaan, and that ALL the inhabitants of the land would be driven out and destroyed. However, Israel decided that they were comfortable and had done enough, and did not completely drive out the inhabitants of Canaan. These people became a snare to them, and I don’t think this is what God wanted, even though it’s what he knew would happen. Did their choices, their exercise of “free will”, inhibit God from giving them all the great blessings he wanted to give them? I think so. I do not believe that God predetermined what Israel would do, and that they had no choice in the matter. Could God have over ruled them and given it to them any way, and even forced them into doing what he wanted them to do? Yes…but he didn’t. Just because God can do something doesn’t mean he will.

These are my thoughts on the topic, for your sake and for others. I hope they have helped to make things clearer. I know they might not be very mainstream, but that is how I have resolved the issue in my heart up to now. There are so many things that are in the Bible, and many things I should know but don’t. But I’m always open to be challenged, especially by people that believe the Bible, all of it, is the inspired Word of God. I’ll say this much: If the Bible says it, I believe it. I might not understand it. Might not understand it ’til I get to Heaven. But I believe it completely. Thank you for your comments. Please continue to leave them. (And please forgive my spelling.)

And one more thing, I don’t think our emotions have a free will. I think our emotions influence our free will.

But what did you mean by dumping people into a category?  Makes it sound like if you follow any of Calvanist theology you are wrong!  I am a Christian…not a Calvanist.  But I do hold to some of Calvanist’ theology.  I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what Romans says about being predestined….it is Scripture also.

If we all have free will, and we decide we no longer want to be a Christian…how does that fit in with the verse where Jesus says nothing can pluck us out of His hand?  Does the nothing exclude ourselves?  That is it up to us to choose for how long we will be a Christian?  Then once we pass through this stage of unbelief do we have to go through this process again?  And for how long?  I know how emotional we as humans can be…does God really cater to the “free will” of our emotions?  Do we lose the inheritance we are promised in the verses below as predestined children of God?

Just something to ponder….

Ro 8:29

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Ro 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
 
Eph 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,